SENATE COMMITTEE ON BUDGET SOLUTIONS

 

September 17, 2002   Hearing Room 357

Time: 9:00 a.m. Tapes 8 - 9

 

MEMBERS PRESENT:            Sen. Lenn Hannon, Chair

Sen. Peter Courtney

Sen. Joan Dukes

Sen. Steve Harper

Senate President Gene Derfler

                                                Sen. Margaret Carter

 

MEMBERS ABSENT:                    Sen. Ken Messerle, Vice-Chair

 

STAFF PRESENT:                  Jennifer Simmons, Committee Assistant

 

MEASURE/ISSUES HEARD:            HB 4079-B Work Session

                                                HB 4079-C Public Hearing and Work Session

                                                HB 4075-B Work Session

                                                HB 4077 Work Session

                                                HB 5100-B Work Session

                                                HB 4074-C Work Session

 

These minutes are in compliance with Senate and House Rules.  Only text enclosed in quotation marks reports a speaker’s exact words.  For complete contents, please refer to the tapes.

 

TAPE/#

Speaker

Comments

TAPE 8, A

004

Chair Hannon

Calls the meeting to order at 9:05 a.m.  Opens a work session on       HB 4079-B.

 

HB 4079-B WORK SESSION

010

Sen. Dukes

MOTION:  Moves to ADOPT HB 4079-B3 amendments dated 9/16/02.

016

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

 

 

018

Paul Warner

Legislative Revenue Officer.  Provides an explanation of the –B3 amendments (EXHIBIT A), which change the temporary income tax increase from a three-year increase to a one-year increase.  Estimates that the measure would raise an additional $212 million in income taxes and $12.1 million in corporate taxes during the 2001-03 biennium.  Says the amendments also delete the reference to a special election, instead making the measure effective 90 days following sine die (EXHIBIT B).

037

Sen. Dukes

MOTION:  Moves HB 4079-A to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.

041

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

SEN.  COURTNEY will lead discussion on the floor.

045

Chair Hannon

Closes the work session on HB 4079-A and recesses the meeting.

 

 

 

**************************************RECESS******************************************

 

 

 

046

Chair Hannon

Reconvenes the meeting at 3:30 p.m.  Reopens the work session on         HB 4079-C.

 

HB 4079-C WORK SESSION

048

Warner

Reviews the –C5 amendments (EXHIBIT C).  States that the major change from the B-engrossed version is in section 10, which sets a special election for January 28, 2003.  Adds that the three-year rate increase is also restored.  Says the rounding adjustment is also changed to the nearest $25, as opposed to the nearest $50.

095

Chair Hannon

MOTION:  Moves to ADOPT HB 4079-C5 amendments dated 9/17/02.

100

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

 

 

101

Chair Hannon

Closes the work session and opens a public hearing on HB 4079-C.

 

HB 4079-C PUBLIC HEARING

102

Chair Hannon

Closes the public hearing and reopens the work session on HB 4079-C.

 

HB 4079-C WORK SESSION

105

Sen. Courtney

MOTION:  Moves HB 4079-C to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.

108

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

SEN. HANNON AND SEN. COURTNEY will lead discussion

                    on the floor.

 

 

 

115

Chair Hannon

Closes the work session on HB 4079-C and opens a work session on       HB 4075-B.

 

HB 4075-B WORK SESSION

121

Adrienne Sexton

Legislative Fiscal Office.  Provides a brief review of the measure.

127

Chair Hannon

MOTION:  Moves to ADOPT HB 4075-B8 amendments dated 9/17/02.

131

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

 

 

132

Sexton

Reviews the –B8 amendments (EXHIBIT D), which substitute a new ballot title for the January 28 2003 special election set forth in           HB 4079-C.  Mentions that a conceptual amendment is necessary to conform HB 4075-B to the revised HB 4079-C.

158

Chair Hannon

MOTION:  Moves to AMEND HB 4075-B in line 16, delete "$315 million" and insert “$313 million”, and on line 17, delete “$249 million” and insert “$247 million”.

171

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

 

 

173

Chair Hannon

MOTION:  Moves HB 4075-B to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.

175

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

SEN. HANNON will lead discussion on the floor.

 

 

 

177

Chair Hannon

Closes the work session on HB 4075-B and opens a work session on      HB 4077.

 

HB 4077 WORK SESSION

186

Sen. Carter

Offers to provide a courtesy vote to move the measure to the floor.

190

Sen. Carter

MOTION:  Moves HB 4077 to the floor with a DO PASS recommendation.

194

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

SEN. HANNON will lead discussion on the floor.

196

Chair Hannon

Closes the work session on HB 4077 and opens a work session on        HB 5100-B.

 

HB 5100-B WORK SESSION

206

Ken Rocco

Legislative Fiscal Officer.  Provides an overview of HB 5100-B.  Says the measure makes targeted budget reductions and funding shifts of approximately $47 million, as well as $310 million in across-the-board cuts that will be repealed should the income tax surcharge become law.

214

Sen. Carter

Indicates that she will provide a courtesy vote to move the measure to the floor.

216

Sen. Courtney

Offers to provide a courtesy vote as well.

225

Chair Hannon

MOTION:  Moves HB 5100-B to the floor with a DO PASS recommendation.

229

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

SEN. HANNON will lead discussion on the floor.

 

 

 

231

Chair Hannon

Closes the work session on HB 5100-B.  Declares the meeting to be in recess.

 

 

 

*************************************RECESS*******************************************

 

 

 

232

Chair Hannon

Reconvenes the meeting and opens a work session on HB 4074-C.

 

HB 4074-C WORK SESSION

233

Rick Olsen

Legislative Fiscal Office.  Indicates that the measure helps resolve the budget crisis.

239

Sen. Courtney

MOTION:  Moves HB 4074-C to the floor with a DO PASS recommendation.

240

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

SEN. HANNON will lead discussion on the floor.

 

 

 

241

Chair Hannon

Closes the work session on HB 4074-C and recesses the meeting.

 

 

 

*************************************RECESS*******************************************

 

 

 

242

Chair Hannon

Reconvenes meeting at 4:29 p.m.

243

Chair Hannon

MOTION:  Moves to RECONSIDER the vote by which HB 5100-B was sent to the floor with a DO PASS recommendation.

245

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

(Rules are suspended by implied consent.)

 

 

 

246

Chair Hannon

Reopens the work session on HB 5100-B

 

HB 5100-B WORK SESSION

248

Sen. Carter

MOTION:  Moves to ADOPT HB 5100-B16 amendments dated 9/17/02.

251

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

 

 

257

Chair Hannon

MOTION:  Moves HB 5100-B to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.

265

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

SEN. HANNON will lead discussion on the floor.

 

 

 

266

Chair Hannon

Declares the meeting to be in recess.

 

 

 

*************************************RECESS*******************************************

 

 

 

271

Chair Hannon

Reconvenes the meeting at 4:29 p.m. 

274

Chair Hannon

MOTION:  Moves to RECONSIDER the vote by which HB 4075-B was sent to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.

276

 

VOTE:  5-0-1

EXCUSED:  1 - Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

(Rules are suspended by implied consent.)

 

 

 

277

Chair Hannon

Reopens the work session on HB 4075-B.

 

HB 4075-B WORK SESSION

278

Greg Chaimov

Legislative Counsel.  States that his office believes the title selected contains inaccurate information but says that the legislature maintains the right to use it if that is the consensus of the body.

289

Chair Hannon

Asks whether the drafter of the –B8 amendments was happy with the language contained within.

291

Chaimov

Replies negatively.

292

Chair Hannon

Wonders why the amendments were submitted to the committee for its consideration if the drafter was displeased with the language they contained.

294

Chaimov

Declines to answer the question due to the confidentiality of the conversation with the requester of the amendments.

295

Chair Hannon

Concludes that the requester of the –B8 amendments wished the language to be included.

296

Chaimov

Maintains that he is not at liberty to discuss the instructions of the requester of the amendments.

300

Sen. Carter

Asks whether the requester was told that the information contained within the amendments was inaccurate at the time the amendments were delivered.

313

Chaimov

Replies he was not present at that time and therefore could not say.

315

Sen. Carter

Inquires whether the Legislative Counsel Office informs legislators or other requesters when there is indication that the language contained therein is believed to be unconstitutional.

313

Chaimov

Replies that his office typically does so, though he cannot comment on whether such information was given in this case.

321

Sen. Carter

Asks what the negative effect would be of the use of the words “from” and “dedicates” in the ballot title.

324

Chaimov

Responds that stating that the measure does not dedicate funds to anything, but rather repeals cuts that would otherwise be made by     HB 5100.

335

Chair Hannon

Requests elaboration on what language would be preferable.

340

Chaimov

Recommends replacing the term “dedicates from” with the word “repeals”.

349

Sen. Carter

Refers to lines 8-9 and reads the proposed language.

356

Chaimov

Corrects himself by saying that the term to be deleted is “dedicates funds to avoid”.  Recommends further deleting the phrase “allows funds to be dedicated to restore” on line 20 and replacing it with “restores”.  Rereads the language of the measure as amended by the conceptual language.

405

Sen. Courtney

Asks whether it would be appropriate to amend the measure conceptually according to Counsel Chaimov’s recommendation.

TAPE 9, A

002

Chair Hannon

Asks whether legislative draft requests are submitted verbatim, or if language is cleaned up for clarity or to better reflect the intent of the request.  Inquires whether such advice was given in this particular case.

020

Chaimov

Responds that he can answer the question only in the general sense and says that generally Legislative Counsel does its best to make changes that best accomplish the requester’s purpose.  Concedes that occasionally the requester insists that the draft reflect the specific language against the recommendation of counsel.

033

Dexter Johnson

Legislative Counsel Office.  Replies that he did not draft the –B8 amendments.

045

Ted Reutlinger

Legislative Counsel Office.  Indicates he was the staff who drafted the –B8 amendments.  States that he cannot answer any questions about conversations between himself and the requester of the amendments due to confidentiality requirements.

060

Sen. Carter

Asks whether a requested amendment, particularly a ballot title, can include any language the requester desires.

066

Chaimov

Answers affirmatively, subject to the caveat that in most instances the Supreme Court has the authority to correct inaccuracies upon the challenge of a dissatisfied elector.

070

Sen. Carter

Wonders what the potential negative effect would be in the event that the current language was to be placed on the ballot and ratified by voters.

096

Chaimov

Replies that there would be no legal ramifications, despite the fact that the language inaccurately portrays the proposed ballot measure.  Reiterates that the legislature is free to refer a factually inaccurate statement does a better job explaining a measure to the general public.

118

Sen. Courtney

MOTION:  Moves to AMEND HB 5100-B10 AMENDMENTS on line 9, delete “dictates” and insert “repeals”, and on line 10, delete “funds to avoid”, and on line 20, delete “allows funds to be dedicated to restore” and insert “restores”.

133

Chaimov

Elaborates that the legislature could factually use the phrase “repeals cuts.”  Explains that HB 4079 does not repeal anything, but HB 5100 repeals the cuts therein if HB 4079’s provisions become law.

166

Sen. Carter

Asks if Counsel Chaimov is suggestion deviation from the language in Sen. Courtney’s motion.

173

Chaimov

Replies that his comments should not be taken to mean that the language in Sen. Courtney’s motion is inaccurate or needs to be replaced.

177

Sen. Carter

Comments that Counsel Chaimov’s comments would seem to make some of the language in the motion redundant.

184

Chaimov

Clarifies his comments regarding the language in the measure and in Sen. Courtney’s motion.

188

Chair Hannon

Asks how long it would take to draft new language according to Counsel Chaimov’s specifications.

204

Chaimov

Replies that the language could be drawn up within 15 minutes.

207

Sen. David Nelson

Remarks that the agreement on HB 4075 is tenuous at best and that the proposed language could reduce support for the measure.

228

Chair Hannon

Closes the work session on HB 4075-B and recesses the meeting.

 

 

 

*************************************RECESS*******************************************

 

 

 

235

Chair Hannon

Reconvenes the meeting at 5:50 p.m. 

238

Chair Hannon

MOTION:  Moves to RECONSIDER the vote by which HB 4075-B was sent to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.

240

 

VOTE:  3-0-3

EXCUSED:  3 - Derfler, Harper, Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

(Rules are suspended by implied consent.)

 

 

 

242

Chair Hannon

Reopens the work session on HB 4075-B.

 

HB 4075-B WORK SESSION

255

Sen. Courtney

Indicates that he would like to remove the –B8 amendments that were adopted previously by the committee.

260

Ted Reutlinger

Legislative Counsel Office.  Notes that the committee made a minor amendment to HB 4079 that altered the fiscal impact statement contained in HB 4075, which was conceptually amended yesterday.  States that if the committee withdraws the –B8 amendments it will need to adopt the –B12 amendments (EXHIBIT F) to revise the numbers within the measure.

272

Chair Hannon

MOTION:  Moves to ADOPT HB 4075-B12 amendments dated 9/17/02.

273

Chair Hannon

Reads the specific language contained within the –B12 amendments.

276

 

VOTE:  3-0-3

EXCUSED:  3 - Derfler, Harper, Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

 

 

280

Sen. Courtney

Requests confirmation that the language amended previously into the measure by the inclusion of the –B8 amendments has been removed.

285

Chair Hannon

Asks staff how to revert the measure back to its previous form, prior to the inclusion of a ballot statement or explanation.

290

Reutlinger

Recommends withdrawing the –B10 amendments that were adopted in conceptual form earlier today by amending and adopting the –B8 amendments.  Says the change will conform HB 4075 to HB 4079.

300

Sen. Courtney

MOTION:  Moves to RESCIND HB 4075-B10 amendments.

303

 

VOTE:  3-0-3

EXCUSED:  3 - Derfler, Harper, Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

 

 

309

Adrienne Sexton

Indicates that the –B8 amendments were adopted and conceptually amended previously in the meeting, yielding the –B10 amendments, which have now been rescinded.

314

Chair Hannon

Requests confirmation that the measure is now in the same state as it was when it was sent out by the committee yesterday.

316

Adrienne

Answers affirmatively.

322

Sen. Courtney

MOTION:  Moves HB 4075 to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.

325

 

VOTE:  3-0

EXCUSED:  3 - Derfler, Harper, Messerle

 

Chair Hannon

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

 

SEN. COURTNEY will lead discussion on the floor.

327

Chair Hannon

Recesses the committee at 5:55 p.m.

 

(Meeting is adjourned by implied consent.)

 

Submitted By,                        Reviewed By,

 

 

 

Patrick Brennan,                        Marjorie Taylor,

Committee Assistant                        Committee Administrator

 

EXHIBIT SUMMARY

 

A – HB 4079, -B3 amendments, staff, 1 p.

B – HB 4079, revenue impact statement for the –B3 amendments, staff, 1 p.

C – HB 4079, -C5 amendments, staff, 3 pp.

D – HB 4075, -B8 amendments, staff, 1 p.

E – HB 5100, -B16 amendments, staff, 1 p.

F – HB 4075, -B12 amendments, staff, 1 p.