SENATE COMMITTEE ON BUDGET SOLUTIONS

September 17, 2002 Hearing Room 357

Time: 9:00 a.m. Tapes 8 - 9

MEMBERS PRESENT: Sen. Lenn Hannon, Chair

Sen. Peter Courtney

Sen. Joan Dukes

Sen. Steve Harper

Senate President Gene Derfler

Sen. Margaret Carter

MEMBERS ABSENT: Sen. Ken Messerle, Vice-Chair

STAFF PRESENT: Jennifer Simmons, Committee Assistant

MEASURE/ISSUES HEARD: HB 4079-B Work Session

HB 4079-C Public Hearing and Work Session

HB 4075-B Work Session

HB 4077 Work Session

HB 5100-B Work Session

HB 4074-C Work Session

These minutes are in compliance with Senate and House Rules. Only text enclosed in quotation marks reports a speaker’s exact words. For complete contents, please refer to the tapes.

TAPE/#	Speaker	Comments
TAPE 8, A
004	Chair Hannon	Calls the meeting to order at 9:05 a.m. Opens a work session on HB 4079-B.
HB 4079-B WORK SESSION
010	Sen. Dukes	MOTION: Moves to ADOPT HB 4079-B3 amendments dated 9/16/02.
016		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.
018	Paul Warner	Legislative Revenue Officer. Provides an explanation of the –B3 amendments (EXHIBIT A), which change the temporary income tax increase from a three-year increase to a one-year increase. Estimates that the measure would raise an additional $212 million in income taxes and $12.1 million in corporate taxes during the 2001-03 biennium. Says the amendments also delete the reference to a special election, instead making the measure effective 90 days following sine die (EXHIBIT B).
037	Sen. Dukes	MOTION: Moves HB 4079-A to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.
041		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED. SEN. COURTNEY will lead discussion on the floor.
045	Chair Hannon	Closes the work session on HB 4079-A and recesses the meeting.
**************************************RECESS******************************************
046	Chair Hannon	Reconvenes the meeting at 3:30 p.m. Reopens the work session on HB 4079-C.
HB 4079-C WORK SESSION
048	Warner	Reviews the –C5 amendments (EXHIBIT C). States that the major change from the B-engrossed version is in section 10, which sets a special election for January 28, 2003. Adds that the three-year rate increase is also restored. Says the rounding adjustment is also changed to the nearest $25, as opposed to the nearest $50.
095	Chair Hannon	MOTION: Moves to ADOPT HB 4079-C5 amendments dated 9/17/02.
100		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.
101	Chair Hannon	Closes the work session and opens a public hearing on HB 4079-C.
HB 4079-C PUBLIC HEARING
102	Chair Hannon	Closes the public hearing and reopens the work session on HB 4079-C.
HB 4079-C WORK SESSION
105	Sen. Courtney	MOTION: Moves HB 4079-C to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.
108		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED. SEN. HANNON AND SEN. COURTNEY will lead discussion on the floor.
115	Chair Hannon	Closes the work session on HB 4079-C and opens a work session on HB 4075-B.
HB 4075-B WORK SESSION
121	Adrienne Sexton	Legislative Fiscal Office. Provides a brief review of the measure.
127	Chair Hannon	MOTION: Moves to ADOPT HB 4075-B8 amendments dated 9/17/02.
131		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.
132	Sexton	Reviews the –B8 amendments (EXHIBIT D), which substitute a new ballot title for the January 28 2003 special election set forth in HB 4079-C. Mentions that a conceptual amendment is necessary to conform HB 4075-B to the revised HB 4079-C.
158	Chair Hannon	MOTION: Moves to AMEND HB 4075-B in line 16, delete "$315 million" and insert “$313 million”, and on line 17, delete “$249 million” and insert “$247 million”.
171		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.
173	Chair Hannon	MOTION: Moves HB 4075-B to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.
175		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED. SEN. HANNON will lead discussion on the floor.
177	Chair Hannon	Closes the work session on HB 4075-B and opens a work session on HB 4077.
HB 4077 WORK SESSION
186	Sen. Carter	Offers to provide a courtesy vote to move the measure to the floor.
190	Sen. Carter	MOTION: Moves HB 4077 to the floor with a DO PASS recommendation.
194		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED. SEN. HANNON will lead discussion on the floor.
196	Chair Hannon	Closes the work session on HB 4077 and opens a work session on HB 5100-B.
HB 5100-B WORK SESSION
206	Ken Rocco	Legislative Fiscal Officer. Provides an overview of HB 5100-B. Says the measure makes targeted budget reductions and funding shifts of approximately $47 million, as well as $310 million in across-the-board cuts that will be repealed should the income tax surcharge become law.
214	Sen. Carter	Indicates that she will provide a courtesy vote to move the measure to the floor.
216	Sen. Courtney	Offers to provide a courtesy vote as well.
225	Chair Hannon	MOTION: Moves HB 5100-B to the floor with a DO PASS recommendation.
229		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED. SEN. HANNON will lead discussion on the floor.
231	Chair Hannon	Closes the work session on HB 5100-B. Declares the meeting to be in recess.
*************************************RECESS*******************************************
232	Chair Hannon	Reconvenes the meeting and opens a work session on HB 4074-C.
HB 4074-C WORK SESSION
233	Rick Olsen	Legislative Fiscal Office. Indicates that the measure helps resolve the budget crisis.
239	Sen. Courtney	MOTION: Moves HB 4074-C to the floor with a DO PASS recommendation.
240		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED. SEN. HANNON will lead discussion on the floor.
241	Chair Hannon	Closes the work session on HB 4074-C and recesses the meeting.
*************************************RECESS*******************************************
242	Chair Hannon	Reconvenes meeting at 4:29 p.m.
243	Chair Hannon	MOTION: Moves to RECONSIDER the vote by which HB 5100-B was sent to the floor with a DO PASS recommendation.
245		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.
	(Rules are suspended by implied consent.)
246	Chair Hannon	Reopens the work session on HB 5100-B
HB 5100-B WORK SESSION
248	Sen. Carter	MOTION: Moves to ADOPT HB 5100-B16 amendments dated 9/17/02.
251		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.
257	Chair Hannon	MOTION: Moves HB 5100-B to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.
265		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED. SEN. HANNON will lead discussion on the floor.
266	Chair Hannon	Declares the meeting to be in recess.
*************************************RECESS*******************************************
271	Chair Hannon	Reconvenes the meeting at 4:29 p.m.
274	Chair Hannon	MOTION: Moves to RECONSIDER the vote by which HB 4075-B was sent to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.
276		VOTE: 5-0-1 EXCUSED: 1 - Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.
	(Rules are suspended by implied consent.)
277	Chair Hannon	Reopens the work session on HB 4075-B.
HB 4075-B WORK SESSION
278	Greg Chaimov	Legislative Counsel. States that his office believes the title selected contains inaccurate information but says that the legislature maintains the right to use it if that is the consensus of the body.
289	Chair Hannon	Asks whether the drafter of the –B8 amendments was happy with the language contained within.
291	Chaimov	Replies negatively.
292	Chair Hannon	Wonders why the amendments were submitted to the committee for its consideration if the drafter was displeased with the language they contained.
294	Chaimov	Declines to answer the question due to the confidentiality of the conversation with the requester of the amendments.
295	Chair Hannon	Concludes that the requester of the –B8 amendments wished the language to be included.
296	Chaimov	Maintains that he is not at liberty to discuss the instructions of the requester of the amendments.
300	Sen. Carter	Asks whether the requester was told that the information contained within the amendments was inaccurate at the time the amendments were delivered.
313	Chaimov	Replies he was not present at that time and therefore could not say.
315	Sen. Carter	Inquires whether the Legislative Counsel Office informs legislators or other requesters when there is indication that the language contained therein is believed to be unconstitutional.
313	Chaimov	Replies that his office typically does so, though he cannot comment on whether such information was given in this case.
321	Sen. Carter	Asks what the negative effect would be of the use of the words “from” and “dedicates” in the ballot title.
324	Chaimov	Responds that stating that the measure does not dedicate funds to anything, but rather repeals cuts that would otherwise be made by HB 5100.
335	Chair Hannon	Requests elaboration on what language would be preferable.
340	Chaimov	Recommends replacing the term “dedicates from” with the word “repeals”.
349	Sen. Carter	Refers to lines 8-9 and reads the proposed language.
356	Chaimov	Corrects himself by saying that the term to be deleted is “dedicates funds to avoid”. Recommends further deleting the phrase “allows funds to be dedicated to restore” on line 20 and replacing it with “restores”. Rereads the language of the measure as amended by the conceptual language.
405	Sen. Courtney	Asks whether it would be appropriate to amend the measure conceptually according to Counsel Chaimov’s recommendation.
TAPE 9, A
002	Chair Hannon	Asks whether legislative draft requests are submitted verbatim, or if language is cleaned up for clarity or to better reflect the intent of the request. Inquires whether such advice was given in this particular case.
020	Chaimov	Responds that he can answer the question only in the general sense and says that generally Legislative Counsel does its best to make changes that best accomplish the requester’s purpose. Concedes that occasionally the requester insists that the draft reflect the specific language against the recommendation of counsel.
033	Dexter Johnson	Legislative Counsel Office. Replies that he did not draft the –B8 amendments.
045	Ted Reutlinger	Legislative Counsel Office. Indicates he was the staff who drafted the –B8 amendments. States that he cannot answer any questions about conversations between himself and the requester of the amendments due to confidentiality requirements.
060	Sen. Carter	Asks whether a requested amendment, particularly a ballot title, can include any language the requester desires.
066	Chaimov	Answers affirmatively, subject to the caveat that in most instances the Supreme Court has the authority to correct inaccuracies upon the challenge of a dissatisfied elector.
070	Sen. Carter	Wonders what the potential negative effect would be in the event that the current language was to be placed on the ballot and ratified by voters.
096	Chaimov	Replies that there would be no legal ramifications, despite the fact that the language inaccurately portrays the proposed ballot measure. Reiterates that the legislature is free to refer a factually inaccurate statement does a better job explaining a measure to the general public.
118	Sen. Courtney	MOTION: Moves to AMEND HB 5100-B10 AMENDMENTS on line 9, delete “dictates” and insert “repeals”, and on line 10, delete “funds to avoid”, and on line 20, delete “allows funds to be dedicated to restore” and insert “restores”.
133	Chaimov	Elaborates that the legislature could factually use the phrase “repeals cuts.” Explains that HB 4079 does not repeal anything, but HB 5100 repeals the cuts therein if HB 4079’s provisions become law.
166	Sen. Carter	Asks if Counsel Chaimov is suggestion deviation from the language in Sen. Courtney’s motion.
173	Chaimov	Replies that his comments should not be taken to mean that the language in Sen. Courtney’s motion is inaccurate or needs to be replaced.
177	Sen. Carter	Comments that Counsel Chaimov’s comments would seem to make some of the language in the motion redundant.
184	Chaimov	Clarifies his comments regarding the language in the measure and in Sen. Courtney’s motion.
188	Chair Hannon	Asks how long it would take to draft new language according to Counsel Chaimov’s specifications.
204	Chaimov	Replies that the language could be drawn up within 15 minutes.
207	Sen. David Nelson	Remarks that the agreement on HB 4075 is tenuous at best and that the proposed language could reduce support for the measure.
228	Chair Hannon	Closes the work session on HB 4075-B and recesses the meeting.
*************************************RECESS*******************************************
235	Chair Hannon	Reconvenes the meeting at 5:50 p.m.
238	Chair Hannon	MOTION: Moves to RECONSIDER the vote by which HB 4075-B was sent to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.
240		VOTE: 3-0-3 EXCUSED: 3 - Derfler, Harper, Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.
	(Rules are suspended by implied consent.)
242	Chair Hannon	Reopens the work session on HB 4075-B.
HB 4075-B WORK SESSION
255	Sen. Courtney	Indicates that he would like to remove the –B8 amendments that were adopted previously by the committee.
260	Ted Reutlinger	Legislative Counsel Office. Notes that the committee made a minor amendment to HB 4079 that altered the fiscal impact statement contained in HB 4075, which was conceptually amended yesterday. States that if the committee withdraws the –B8 amendments it will need to adopt the –B12 amendments (EXHIBIT F) to revise the numbers within the measure.
272	Chair Hannon	MOTION: Moves to ADOPT HB 4075-B12 amendments dated 9/17/02.
273	Chair Hannon	Reads the specific language contained within the –B12 amendments.
276		VOTE: 3-0-3 EXCUSED: 3 - Derfler, Harper, Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.
280	Sen. Courtney	Requests confirmation that the language amended previously into the measure by the inclusion of the –B8 amendments has been removed.
285	Chair Hannon	Asks staff how to revert the measure back to its previous form, prior to the inclusion of a ballot statement or explanation.
290	Reutlinger	Recommends withdrawing the –B10 amendments that were adopted in conceptual form earlier today by amending and adopting the –B8 amendments. Says the change will conform HB 4075 to HB 4079.
300	Sen. Courtney	MOTION: Moves to RESCIND HB 4075-B10 amendments.
303		VOTE: 3-0-3 EXCUSED: 3 - Derfler, Harper, Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.
309	Adrienne Sexton	Indicates that the –B8 amendments were adopted and conceptually amended previously in the meeting, yielding the –B10 amendments, which have now been rescinded.
314	Chair Hannon	Requests confirmation that the measure is now in the same state as it was when it was sent out by the committee yesterday.
316	Adrienne	Answers affirmatively.
322	Sen. Courtney	MOTION: Moves HB 4075 to the floor with a DO PASS AS AMENDED recommendation.
325		VOTE: 3-0 EXCUSED: 3 - Derfler, Harper, Messerle
	Chair Hannon	Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED. SEN. COURTNEY will lead discussion on the floor.
327	Chair Hannon	Recesses the committee at 5:55 p.m.
	(Meeting is adjourned by implied consent.)

Submitted By, Reviewed By,

Patrick Brennan, Marjorie Taylor,

Committee Assistant Committee Administrator

EXHIBIT SUMMARY

A – HB 4079, -B3 amendments, staff, 1 p.

B – HB 4079, revenue impact statement for the –B3 amendments, staff, 1 p.

C – HB 4079, -C5 amendments, staff, 3 pp.

D – HB 4075, -B8 amendments, staff, 1 p.

E – HB 5100, -B16 amendments, staff, 1 p.

F – HB 4075, -B12 amendments, staff, 1 p.