HOUSE COMMITTEE ON WATER

 

 

February 13, 2003   Hearing Room B

8:30 A.M. Tapes  18 - 19

 

MEMBERS PRESENT:            Rep. Bob Jenson, Chair

Rep. Jeff Kropf, Vice-Chair

Rep. Linda Flores

Rep. Jeff Kruse

Rep. Mike Schaufler

Rep. Carolyn Tomei

 

MEMBER EXCUSED:             Rep. Jackie Dingfelder, Vice-Chair

 

 

STAFF PRESENT:                  Pete Test, Committee Administrator

Ryan Sherlock, Committee Assistant

 

 

MEASURE/ISSUES HEARD:            Introduction of Committee Measure LC 2226 – Work Session

                                                Informational Meeting

                                                            Oregon Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ) Update

                                                            Update on Hawes, et al vs. State of Oregon

 

 

These minutes are in compliance with Senate and House Rules.  Only text enclosed in quotation marks reports a speaker’s exact words.  For complete contents, please refer to the tapes.

 

TAPE/#

Speaker

Comments

TAPE 18, A

004

Chair Jenson

Calls meeting to order at 8:30 a.m. and opens work session on LC 2226 (EXHIBIT A).

LC 2226 – WORK SESSION

010

Rep. Kropf

Asks what is the intention of the LC draft.

015

Chair Jenson

Defers to Mr. Ashcom.

025

Scott Ashcom

Oregon Agriculture Alliance, Inc. Offers written testimony (EXHIBIT B) supporting the committee adoption of LC 2226.

035

Chair Jensen

MOTION:  Moves LC 2226 BE INTRODUCED as a committee bill.

 

 

VOTE:  6-0

EXCUSED:  1 - Dingfelder

 

Chair Jenson

Hearing no objection, declares the motion CARRIED.

040

Chair Jenson

Indicates his and Rep. Kropf’s need to leave the meeting and testify before another committee. Turns the Chair over to Rep. Kruse.

045

Rep. Kruse

Closes the work session on LC 2226, and opens an informational meeting.

INFORMATIONAL MEETING

050

Mike Llewelyn

Water Quality Division, Administrator. Offers written testimony (EXHIBIT C) and presentation regarding the function and operation of the Water Quality Division, and explanation of the Clean Water Act.

  • Federal Clean Water Act
  • Water Quality Standards

095

Rep. Kruse

Refers to a past case where a Hyundai plant was discharging water that was too clean.

105

Llewelyn

Indicates that he is unaware of that specific case, but responds that his further testimony may address the issue. Continues with presentation:

  • Water Quality Standards.

175

Rep. Kruse

Asks for a document comparing Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and Department of Environmental Quality standards.

176

Llewelyn

Indicates that he will provide said document to the committee. Continues with presentation:

  • Criteria
  • 303D List

305

Rep. Tomei

Clarifies the ten percent figure mentioned.

310

Llewelyn

Explains that of the 130,000 stream and river mile in the state, 13,000 are on the 303D list, or about 10%

315

Rep. Schaufler

Clarifies that not all of the streams include run year round, and ask what the cutoff is for including these streams on the list.

320

Llewelyn

Discusses at which point streams are recorded and placed on the list.

355

Rep. Schaufler

Asks if most of the 13,000 are flowing year round.

360

Llewelyn

Answers affirmatively. Continues with presentation:

  • Non-point Sources

405

Rep. Kruse

Questions the geographical biased relevance of non-point source classifications.

425

Llewelyn

Responds that the definition of non-point sources his broad and includes problems coming off of federal lands.

435

Rep. Kruse

Points out that the ability of the State to affect water control of federal lands is limited.

440

Llewelyn

Agrees, and discusses the role of federal agencies in controlling standards on federal lands within the state.

460

Rep. Kruse

Clarifies that federal agencies may not have to follow standards if the funding is not available.

465

Llewelyn

Concurs.

470

Rep. Tomei

Ask if Mr. Llewelyn could review a skipped slide.

TAPE 19, A

025

Llewelyn

Apologizes for missing the slide, and continues presentation:

  • Point Source Management

035

Rep. Kruse

Refers to Portland’s new storm water system and the change in classification for some of the sources involved. Asks about the relationship between treatment and source in such a situation.

045

Llewelyn

Offers a history and current state of EPA regulations on storm water runoff. Continues with presentation:

  • Evolution of CWA

150

Rep. Kropf

Asks whether there is conclusive science which links toxics in water and fish deformity.

155

Llewelyn

Explains that there is good evidence and research of the link, but indicates the situation of the Newburg Pool is still unsolved. Continues with presentation:

  • Sample Watershed
  • Municipalities
  • Industries
  • Growth Impact
  • Anti-degradation

260

Rep. Tomei

Ask for a clarification of a specific slide.

265

Llewelyn

Offers an explanation of the slide. Continues with presentation:

  • Anti-degradation
  • Non-point Sources

310

Rep. Kruse

Asks whether economic factors are taken into account when allowing discharge.

325

Llewelyn

Explains that economic factors are taken into account, and offers examples.

340

Rep. Kropf

Explains a circumstance in his district where discharge issues were at odds with growth issues, and asks for an explanation of the Three Basin Rule.

380

Llewelyn

Offers an explanation of the Three Basin Rule.

TAPE 18, B

020

Rep. Kropf

Explains that the City of Detroit, Oregon would like to install a water treatment plant but is limited by the cost of such a project due to the discharge regulations, asks if the rules can be changed in this case.

030

Llewelyn

Responds that the relevant issue is a public policy which his certainly subject to change through the proper process.

040

Rep. Schaufler

Asks what happens when the level of omissions produced is lessoned over time, and new industry would like to move into the region.

045

Llewelyn

Explains that at a certain level below the limits there is the ability for further development.

065

Rep. Kropf

Asks if Mr. Llewelyn’s presentation will later address the opportunities for communities to obtain financial help in addressing these regulations while sustaining growth.

070

Llewelyn

Offers an overview of the grant programs and other means which help local communities meet water quality regulations.

095

Rep. Kropf

Asks if the Oregon Economic Community Development also helps with these issues.

097

Llewelyn

Responds affirmatively.

100

Chair Jenson

Mentions the committee may be running short on time, and asks that Mr. Llewelyn continue with his presentation.

105

Llewelyn

Continues with presentation:

  • Non-point source
  • New Twists
  • Impaired Water bodies in Oregon
  • Total Maximum Daily Load (TMDL)
  • Adaptive Management

260

Rep. Kruse

Acknowledges that temperature is extremely controversial, and expresses concern for how temperature is recorded.

265

Llewelyn

Addresses Rep. Kruse’s concern and discusses the issues regarding the temperature standard.

295

Rep. Kruse

Clarifies his concerns regarding.

320

Chair Jenson

Thanks Mr. Llewelyn for his testimony and recognizes Richard Whitman.

325

Richard Whitman

Oregon Department of Justice, Natural Resources Section, Attorney In-Charge. Offers testimony regarding Hawes, et al vs. State of Oregon.

360

Rep. Kruse

Clarifies the specificity of the decision was on purpose.

365

Whitman

Confirms, and continues with presentation.

400

Rep. Schaufler

Clarifies that the Hawes disagreed with the authority of DEQ or the amount of the TMDL.

405

Whitman

Clarifies that Hawes disagrees with the authority of the DEQ.

TAPE 19, B

005

Rep. Kruse

Asks the point of the lawsuit is to determine if the EPA has the authority to regulate non-point sources.

010

Whitman

Refers to and discusses other case around the country similarly challenging the EPA’s authority in this area.

030

Rep. Kruse

Refers to arguments that the EPA is exceeding its authority which is the reason for these law suits.

040

Whitman

Concurs.

042

Rep. Kruse

Asks if there is a court that has been overturned by the 9th District court.

045

Whitman

Acknowledges that the 9th district court has been the most overturned court by the Supreme Court.

050

Rep. Kropf

Asks for the reasoning in the circuit ruling in why they ruled in favor of the plaintiff.

052

Whitman

Discusses the decision of the court.

065

Rep. Schaufler

Asks what sort of impact the Hawes decision would have on the Hawes family.

070

Whitman

Indicates that he is not the trial attorney for this case, but speculates on the outcome of the decision and the impact on the Hawes.

080

Rep. Kropf

Asks whether the Oregon Department of Justice was involved in the original decision, in the form of filing a brief

085

Whitman

Explains that because the state was the defendant they were involved, and further discusses the states role in other cases.

095

Rep. Kropf

Asks what the States argument is for signing onto the aforementioned case.

100

Whitman

Addresses the role of the state in other cases.

115

Rep. Kropf

Clarifies the previous statement of Mr. Whitman.

125

Whitman

Further explains his statement.

145

Rep. Kropf

Asks for a reiteration as to where the State is on the Hawes case.

150

Whitman

Reiterates the States stance on the Hawes case.

165

Rep. Schaufler

Asks whether the requirements at issue in the Hawes case are currently law or is the issue on hold until the outcome of the case.

175

Whitman

Discusses the affects of the case on the Hawes on current law.

205

Rep. Schaufler

Clarifies the makeup of the Hawes property.

210

Whitman

Indicates he doesn’t know.

212

Chair Jenson

Responds that he thinks the Hawes have pasture land, and further discusses the issues, indicating that the case is primarily a test case to clarify the current law.

230

Rep. Kropf

Asks why the state of Oregon is seeking a stay on the Hawes case.

235

Whitman

Explains the intent of the state in clarifying the courts judgment.

240

Rep. Kropf

Asks what the implications of not being granted the stay would be.

242

Whitman

Explains that not receiving the stays could cause the possible delay in final adoption of some TMDL’s.

260

Rep. Kruse

Asks for a clarification regarding why EPA is able to declare TMDL’s but not to regulate non-point sources.

275

Whitman

Discusses the DEQ’s authority in regards to TMDL’s and non-point sources.

285

Rep. Kruse

Further questions the issue.

295

Whitman

Agrees and further explains.

300

Rep. Flores

Asks whether the number of required trees planted is directly related to the number of stream miles.

305

Whitman

Explains that the actual cost of tree planting is debated.

315

Chair Jenson

Closes the informational meeting and adjourns the meeting at 10:24 a.m.

 

 

 

EXHIBIT SUMMARY

 

A – LC 2226, draft, staff, 1 p.

B – LC 2226, written testimony, Scott Ashcom, 12 pp.

C – Informational meeting, presentation, Mike Llewelyn, 10 pp.